The topic du jour is women's ordination. Now you should know that I have had this one swimming around in my head for a bit since reading this. It just didn't sit right with me and not because I think its my job as a woman to stay home barefoot, pregnant and stirring a big pot of soup. Not that that hasn't been a very enjoyable part of my life. Okay, the pregnant part only accounts for eighteen months, and at my age, it sure ain't happening again!!! I should state right up front that I do not have any odd ideas about women being only suited for the domestic side of life. Just so no one gets the wrong idea about where I might be coming from.
That said, I will come right out and say that I do not believe that God wills women to be pastors or priests or whatever you call the person who leads your particular congregation. It is quite interesting that almost all of the arguments for this that I have seen do NOT appeal to serious scriptural principles, but rather to an emotional play on the feelings of those that they are trying to convince. It is not RIGHT, it is not JUST, it is not FAIR. Ok, then please explain from a biblical point of view why it isn't right or just or fair. To do so, you will have to prove then that God never puts constraints on the roles that one seeks in life. Ever. You will have to prove it beyond simply quoting Galations 3:28, which is the usual verse pulled out to justify the ordination of women. All this verse is saying is that when it comes to worth in God's eyes that we are indeed equal. This doesn't necessarily translate to God's seal of approval on every position that one might wish to hold in one's flesh. Even our own government has restraints on who may become president. Those regulations being designed to protect the office in some fashion or another. It isn't really "fair" that Arnold Schwartzenegger cannot run for president because he was not born a US citizen. But that's the way it works and there is a reason for it. A good reason. Even if in Arnold's particular case, he very well might make an excellent president. It has nothing to do with him as an individual and whether he might or might not be able to carry out the duties of that office quite well. (please don't take this as a political endorsement of any kind. It is simply an example) Is it not fair to say that even if we do not know and may never know the exact reason that God might choose to close off certain positions to women, that it could be a perfectly legitimate thing for God to do, knowing what we know of his character??? This is not even a question that women's ordination proponents tend to visit, let alone give serious thought to. It IS one worth asking, though.
I find it to be most interesting that the blog post that I linked to at the beginning of this piece talks about power and leadership in extremely worldly terms. This has been true of almost everything that I have read in favor of the ordination of women. Power is something to be envied. Something to be grasped. Something to seek after. All of which counteract the very clear words of scripture. Leadership, too, is spoken of in the flesh. Christ talks of leaders laying down their lives for those that they serve. He does not talk of seeking glory for one's own self; but rather of avoiding that glory and reflecting all glory back to God. Please do tell me how the same God who stripped Jesus of all power to make him a humble servant leader would be encouraging such a clear bid to engage in the ways of the world?? I do not hear these women talking about how much they want a chance to serve, lay down their lives and die to themselves as they lead the body of Christ. They very much appear to be seeking after the glory and respect of the world and that position of power from which they can be the ones to call the shots rather than someone else. Anyone who believes that Christian leadership is about being in control has not read their bible very carefully. They are modeling their view of leadership on the world and not on the kingdom of God. Their bid for ordination, while cloaked in cries of "fairness" and "justice" is really nothing more than the very kind of power grab that Jesus railed so much against.
I should add that every single man that I have ever known who has been genuinely called to ministry has prayed many times to let this cup pass from them. Those who are too eager; one would do very well to question whether their call is even from God in the first place or simply emanating from the desires of their own flesh.
It is merely coincidental that my husband had this as a topic for a term paper that he just finished tonight. His input was only the frosting on the cake; the gilding of the lily. I am not attempting here to lay out the biblical arguments, as many have already done that and probably far much better than I ever could. My desire is simply to point out some glaring holes in the reasoning of those who believe that to contraindicate a completely gender blind theology is to be a bigot of the worst kind.
I think that there is probably much more to say on this, but I will save it for another blog post; another day. If these women have been treated with such disrespect in the church that they have truly felt invisible, then that is a real problem. We all have gifts. But as I am learning, using those gifts is NOT about us. It is about glorifying God. I do believe that the lessons that I am learning in finding my own little niche in the Christian universe and the motives for such are indeed very relevant to this matter. I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's not about us and how important we feel. It's about God and all glory reflecting back to Him alone. The more humble we are, the more God can use us. God's idea of who is important in the kingdom of heaven does not match earthly standards. The least of these are the greatest. There is much caution in scripture to those in positions of power, even Christian leadership. To seek after those types of positions with a worldly heart would seem to contradict the very fiber of which a life devoted to God is woven.
Hi there,
ReplyDeleteComing from a more complimentarity perspective and belief in the scriptures I don't agree with your position on the ordination of women.
I don't think it's due to my own gender issues but I see the complimentarity in the scriptures right from the creation of Adam and Eve and their partnership right from the start.
I do believe that a LOT of the arguments used to discourage women in leadership and women in pastoral positions and ordination etc. I believe a LOT of the arguments put forward has to do with the culture at that time. There were certain rules and regulations set by the leaders of the church because of the current culture that oppressed women.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that gender roles are unique and special and I do believe that there is a kind of leadership that God has placed with the man that is different from the woman.
I attend a church that has a few women in Pastoral Positions. It's a joint team between men and women. The women are released in their God given strengths and abilities. Their strengths in leadership are acknowledged. They respect the Pastors on the team that are men. There is this equal respect and co-submission with each other.
I do believe that marriage too involves equal submission with each other, and truly a complimentarity between the two genders that brings glory to God's original intended purposes in how men and women relate with each other. It's not the two competing against each other and the woman trying to take over the mans position but it's the man recognizing and acknowledging that God gave gifts to the woman to not only be used in the home but also within the body of Christ. The leadership of men is best seen when they can release and bless the women in their giftings and abilities. It shows that they truly know how to lead and be men and also be Pastors when they can accept the gifts and abilities of the women in the church and release the women in the church for ministry including Pastoral ministry. "Positions" within the church isn't something to fight for, God gave some to be Pastors, some to be Prophets, some to be Evenagelist, some to be teachers, and some to be Apostles... it's a ministry not a position but in our church's we've made this out to be a position. It's a gift and the more we recognize that being a Pastor is a gift the less we make it out to be some kind of glorified position within the church when it is one part of the whole body of Christ. I think we've distorted a bit in our church's today the role of our Pastors. It's a gift and I do believe that women are given Pastoral giftings and it's a strength in the leadership of men to be able to see this gift in a woman and then to release her into that gifting and bless her in it.
I actually had not read my husbands paper when I wrote this. I am kinda glad. Because I didn't want to rip off his ideas. One thing that he pointed out that I missed is that in the early church, there WAS a role of deaconess for women, which the easter Orthodox church tries in various degrees to bring back.
ReplyDeleteI was trying really hard to confine my view to the woman a as the lead pastor. Because of course there are plenty of staff positions for women. Its just that one place of the guy who is in charge of the entire church...
I think there is a lot of confusion in churches today about what exactly constitutes a "pastor" and this does not help the situation.
ReplyDeleteWe have "Community pastors" in our church...they pretty much oversee home group leaders. Is this the same thing? The person who oversees the worship arts crew is a woman. I am not at all uncomfortable with this. A lot of churches call anyone who oversees anyone else a "pastor" of sorts.
However, I think I would feel quite disturbed if our head pastor retired and was replaced by someone female.
I would respect a female Pastor.
ReplyDeleteI come from the belief in the 5 fold ministry and a complimentarity view of husband/wife relationship.
I guess people who might have a more extreme headship perspective with husband/wife I don't necessarily believe that the "Headship" is all that accurate. Although I do believe in a leadership role of the husband and in relating with men.
I believe that the husband/wife relationship is a different issue then ministry. I do believe that the two are seperate.
Jesus cross the culturally set gender boundaries obviously. He set the precidence in regards to women in ministry, women in leadership, and women being elevated to a place of equality with men.
I do believe that people have placed to much emphasis on the role of a Pastor in their church and therefore made the church Pastors role more of a position then a ministry, and influenced the church towards becoming more like a business then an organic move of God.
The Deacons in many church hold more power and authority then the Pastor and you just commented that there were women deaconesses in the early church.
But here's something else, the church has made the role of a Deacon into a role that wasn't really the intended role either.
The role of a Pastor and a Deacon have both been scewed and therefore not really what God ever intended. And we wonder why church is not opperating from a place of health and wholeness?
The original Deacons were Greek intentionally because there was a language barrier. The role of a Deacon was originally a servant role... yet, we've made the Deacons people of authority and leadership when that wasn't the original intended purpose for them.
Anyways, since we've distorted our view on the role of a Pastor in the church I can see why people debate on whether or not women should be lead Pastors or not.
Some church's will send women to be missionary's and to Pastor church's overseas but when it comes time to giving them a paid position within the church they say that's not a role for the women... why the double standard? Not saying that you have a double standard but just stating a LOT of church's have a scewed understanding of God's original purpose that was intended for the Pastor. They have made it more of a position then what it really is, a gift.
If we understand that it's a gift then we understand that it's not about being in a place of authority but rather under authority, and instead of a place of power, it becomes a place of servanthood, and instead of a power-relationship between the Pastor and the congregation it becomes a place where within the 5 fold ministry, there is this co-labouring with each other, a co-submission with each other, a servant to each other, a helper to each other, lending strengths to each other.
So, in my oppinon I don't think God ever intended for there to be a sort of "Lead Pastor" but more closer to a 5 fold ministry.
Which was in the early church how the body of Christ functioned. Today the 5 fold ministry is not respected like it was in the early church. I could go on, but my comment is already way too long ... there's just a LOT there.